Doc's eBay Motors Sucks phpBB Forum

I bought a car from Pro Auto Group, a Fort Worth-based dealership, through Ebay Motors. The car was “certified” to be free of mechanical defect. Within HOURS of leaving the dealership with the car, the clutch/transmission failed and the car had to be towed to a repair shop. In short, despite attempts at mediation and direct negotiations, Pro Auto Group refused to do a thing to repair the car or take it back for a refund. Their position was that the damage was due to “driver abuse” despite the fact that I had the car for less than 6 hours and the needed repairs were due, clearly, to long term, pre-existing damage.

The situation is compounded by the fact that Pro Auto Group has been committing this fraud against dozens of unsuspecting buyers under the cover of “100% Positive Feedback” on Ebay Motors. A sham based partially on backend payoffs and coercion resulting in “mutually withdrawn” negative feedback. I even found one individual who bought a “certified” vehicle that was claimed to have never have been in a wreck - and he subsequently found it had been in a head on collision. He also found that the service records provided for the vehicle were falsified! Another lady I talked to bought a car from Pro Auto Group with fraudulent odometer mileage.

In my case, the dealer posted negative feedback referring to me as “a terrorist” and claiming that my 15 year old daughter had burned out the clutch – a car that I had had for less than 6 hours! It was almost laughable if it hadn’t been such a disturbing fabrication! Even more disturbing is that Ebay Motors not only failed to act, they were directly complicate in this ongoing farce. In less than 24 hours after I posted negative feedback, Pro Auto Group was able to get Ebay to suspend my account and have my feedback deleted! There was no hearing. No arbitration process. No inquiry whatsoever. Ebay arbitrarily and summarily backed Pro Auto Group because of their leverage as a power seller.

What is your eBay user id? And do you have an item number?

The item # is 4628400158. The user ID is/was Shelley78751 - until they suspended it.

That is interesting.. If i am right Pro Automotive Group is owned or managed by Ken Topham, another long time eBay seller.. Have you heard that name during your your communication with the dealership??

What was the comment you left in their feedback? It's ok to repeat it here. Usually sellers have to pay 100.00 to have negative feedback removed, but it is just the rating, not the comment itself.

What was the offense eBay NARU'd you for? Or better yet the excuse they used!!

We're not sure, yet, who the owner of the dealership is. We will know that soon though because we're in the process of filing a lawsuit. Does Topham have a track record for things like?

The negative feedback we left for Pro Auto Group was "Scam Seller! Check feedback left for others and contact me before bids!"
The reasons given for suspension was that we "violated Ebay policies". I'm guessing Pro Auto Group claimed we used the threat of negative feedback as "extortion". The whole thing is such a racket.

Are there other sites where we should be posting this kind of information? We'd like to spread the word to protect as many people from Pro Auto Group and Ebay Motors as possible?

I heard somewhere Topham was Pro Automotive not sure if it is true or not, But he was one of ebay's most credible sellers back in the beginning of eBay (before EBM was launched)

eBay is only interested in collecting fees and does cater to high volume power sellers! They claim it is a level playing field, but we all know that is BS!

You can see how they are manipulating the system by buying negative feedback rating removal by using http://www.toolhaus.org
http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=p ... eceived+by
http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=p ... rn=Left+by

I do not see where the feedback you left constituted removal do to feedback policy, unless you mentioned a name or left contact info in the comment. But even that is no reason for your acct to be suspended! The old eBay double standards are alive and well!!

What is the estimate for the repairs needed? As for the vehicle, any wear items (clutch disk, brake pads, etc) are not usually covered by any warranty. But any good seller would work a compromise out with you to ensure your happiness with the vehicle!

You might want to post your complaint over on the Rip Off Report!
http://www.ripoffreport.com/

Also file a complaint with the Texas Motor Vehicle Department!
http://www.dot.state.tx.us/mvd/enforcem ... mation.htm

Thanks for the input!! The toohaus stuff is great! As for the clutch problem, it was more than just a burnt out clutch. The flywheel was damaged which is something that happens over time and thousands of miles. The car was supposed to have been certified. There is no way the clutch should have failed after only 6 hours! And you're right - any reputable dealer would have fixed it.

GOOD JOB!!!

http://www.proautogroup.info/

http://www.kvue.com/sharedcontent/Video ... idId=64041

http://forums.ebay.com/db1/thread.jspa? ... 2699607071

I'm surprised eBay has not Yanked this thread yet..

Discussion Post a reply | Print

Another Chip Out Of The Cornerstone Of Trust!
redturtlemotors (1 ) View Listings | Report Jul-06-06 17:06 PDT
I would have fixed the clutch to ensure the buyers happiness..

http://www.proautogroup.info/

http://www.kvue.com/sharedcontent/Video ... idId=64041
.
Red is the Best Color..

39 replies Date posted Reply #
alanmaier (2619 ) View Listings | Report Jul-06-06 17:25 PDT 1 of 39
WOW!

But there are some statements and claims made by the buyer and report that just aren't true on eBay.

I can imagine the pull of the mutual neg removal before you fix it scam, sleazy as it is. But...

How can the seller have the buyer NARU'd?

Also, when looking at feedback, the mutual number is right up there on top.

I truly feel for the buyer of the beetle here, but to anyone who knows eBay, the report is more buggy than the bum deal.

meowsertd (50 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 05:56 PDT 2 of 39
In Doc we trust all others Cash
Anything said by me is Parody and not to be taken seriously. No statements of fact made are to be deemed factual. ©

mopared (141 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 06:05 PDT 3 of 39
Hell, she got a Rabbot, errrr I mean a Beetle, pretty darn cheap. Put a dang clutch in it and go on with your life.

mopared (141 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 06:05 PDT 4 of 39
*Rabbit

dogthebountyhunter (69 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 06:15 PDT 5 of 39
Really? I thought she kind of overpaid for it. I never did catch the year or milage on it though. Those five speed beetles don't bring much around here.

meowsertd (50 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 06:15 PDT 6 of 39
speaking of rabbits i swear i saw that VW is starting production on the rabbit again
Anything said by me is Parody and not to be taken seriously. No statements of fact made are to be deemed factual. ©

dogthebountyhunter (69 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 06:25 PDT 7 of 39
Do you remember when some city's were using them for POLICE CARS?

meowsertd (50 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 06:28 PDT 8 of 39

you remember these?
Anything said by me is Parody and not to be taken seriously. No statements of fact made are to be deemed factual. ©

dogthebountyhunter (69 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 06:32 PDT 9 of 39
Does that say FREETOWING on the side of that car?

mopared (141 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 06:35 PDT 10 of 39
Holy crap, a Pacer cop car ROFL!

redturtlemotors (1 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 06:36 PDT 11 of 39
Regardless of the selling price, The vehicle should have been able to be reliably driven. The Implied Warranty is an issue here!

I would have apologised to the buyer for their inconvenience and offered to split the repair cost with them, If they balked at that i would have just ate it myself. I would have earned a repeat buyer for sure! And she would have probably recommended our dealership to her friends!

In today's world, especially with all the competition, Good customer service/satisfaction is a Must if you want to stay in business for the long run!

Ina Steiner will be reporting about this transaction Sunday in her news letter..

Red is the Best Color..

meowsertd (50 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 06:56 PDT 12 of 39
http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?c ... ushcar.wmv

safe for work
Anything said by me is Parody and not to be taken seriously. No statements of fact made are to be deemed factual. ©

junqueluver64 (27 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 07:28 PDT 13 of 39
I agree with the redturtle,all the negative publicity that dealers getting FAR outweighs the cost of a new clutch,I never would have left a car leave my lot with a problem like that in the first place,and if it DID somehow,I would just pay to fix it 100%.I've done just that a few times,and I've gained whole families as customers,which FAR outweighed the costs of the repairs.

meowsertd (50 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 07:33 PDT 14 of 39
theres no will like goodwill no salvation like the army

make it right by the customer they will mostly do right by you...(good word of mouth)

you can be judged by your actions others might see how you handle the customer and come to buy from you

chicks dig scars and pain is fleeting
Anything said by me is Parody and not to be taken seriously. No statements of fact made are to be deemed factual. ©

tony1963 (443 ) View Listings | Report Jul-08-06 13:41 PDT 15 of 39
Next time, buy a Clean Southern Ride from a reputable seller.

proautogroup (881 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 14:54 PDT 16 of 39
This matter just came to our attention. We did pay the full amount of the repairs. For all who are reading it should be known that the buyer came to pick up the vehicle and stated that she hadn't driven a stick shift in years and she did not know if she would remember how to drive one. She further acknowledged that the car was for her 15 year old daughter who was yet to receive a license and did not even know how to drive either. The daughter was begging her mother to let her drive the car home from our dealership. Every vehicle we sell undergoes a rigid inspection and there was no clutch issue with the vehicle at the time it was delivered. After a 200 mile trip with a trial and error method of learning to drive a stick shift, one can easily burn a clutch completely out of a car which is exactly what happened. We initially had no idea that this had occured and had the car towed to a dealership in her town where she did arrive home. She told the dealership that she may have burned the clutch out. The dealer confirmed to us that without a doubt it was driver error. We fully resolve every issue and even purchase vehicles back if a buyer feels it is not as described. I know of no dealership in the world that pays for abuse or driver error. The customer was so abusive to us, cursing, screaming and totally unwilling to be reasonable with any level of discussion. While she has a very convincing (one sided) argument, the facts remain. We have paid the repair bill in full which we feel far exceeds our obligation. She has built this very damaging web site and is unrelenting in her attacks, all the while not only did she damage the vehicle, she also received reimbursement for all the repairs. Where is integrity? You decide.

Pro Auto Group

proautogroup (881 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 14:56 PDT 17 of 39
This matter just came to our attention. We did pay the full amount of the repairs. For all who are reading it should be known that the buyer came to pick up the vehicle and stated that she hadn't driven a stick shift in years and she did not know if she would remember how to drive one. She further acknowledged that the car was for her 15 year old daughter who was yet to receive a license and did not even know how to drive either. The daughter was begging her mother to let her drive the car home from our dealership. Every vehicle we sell undergoes a rigid inspection and there was no clutch issue with the vehicle at the time it was delivered. After a 200 mile trip with a trial and error method of learning to drive a stick shift, one can easily burn a clutch completely out of a car which is exactly what happened. We initially had no idea that this had occured and had the car towed to a dealership in her town where she did arrive home. She told the dealership that she may have burned the clutch out. The dealer confirmed to us that without a doubt it was driver error. We fully resolve every issue and even purchase vehicles back if a buyer feels it is not as described. I know of no dealership in the world that pays for abuse or driver error. The customer was so abusive to us, cursing, screaming and totally unwilling to be reasonable with any level of discussion. While she has a very convincing (one sided) argument, the facts remain. We have paid the repair bill in full which we feel far exceeds our obligation. She has built this very damaging web site and is unrelenting in her attacks, all the while not only did she damage the vehicle, she also received reimbursement for all the repairs. Where is integrity? You decide.

Pro Auto Group

mopared (141 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 16:47 PDT 18 of 39
Now see, if any of us had said "bet she couldn't drive a clutch", we'd have been called sexist or whatever.

I'll admit, however, that when I read all that stuff on her website, the first thing that popped in my mind was "she can't drive a clutch...that thing looks roasted!"

Thanks for giving your side of things. Very big of you to not only reimburse, but to come here as well and post.

brianna2001 (8 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 17:00 PDT 19 of 39
Very interesting indeed....

Anna

redturtlemotors (1 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 17:10 PDT 20 of 39
So the Mechanic doing the TV Interview Lied??

If the person handling the eBay account had properly handled the situation it would have never escalated to this point!

And Name Calling by a seller in a feedback forum is a sign of severe immaturity! Pro Auto appears to be less than Professional in customer service/satisfaction!
.
Red is the Best Color..

mopared (141 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 17:38 PDT 21 of 39
Ummm, Doc?
1. I don't see where they called anyone names in their post.
2. They went above and beyond by paying all the repair bills, even though she fried the clutch.
3. They aren't the one with the defamatory web site slandering folks....she is.

Holy crap.....talk about ironic. I'm defending a dealer to a dealer! I need a drink.....

meowsertd (50 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 17:51 PDT 22 of 39
you got a reicpt proving you paid for the repairs? btw i liked that white excursion truck you listed, customers like the one listed here prevented me from bidding further on it and in fact caused me to take my purchase elsewhere

in short SHE COST YOU A CUSTOMER (me)
Anything said by me is Parody and not to be taken seriously. No statements of fact made are to be deemed factual. ©

bullwinkle222 (0 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 18:01 PDT 23 of 39
"They aren't the one with the defamatory web site slandering folks....she is."

So,because the SELLER came here and made a statement that the BUYER is all to blame we are automatically supposed to believe the seller ?
If I were the seller I'd be trying to clean it up too.

bluenova1971 (54 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 18:06 PDT 24 of 39
Yes, I think the mechanic probably "stretched the truth".

Hey, it was his 15 minutes of fame!

bullwinkle222 (0 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 18:25 PDT 25 of 39
I think somebody stretched the truth but I don't think it was the mechanic.

the_kid_rocks (160 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 18:39 PDT 26 of 39
Yes there are always three sides to a story, and I for one am glad to hear that the second side chimed in and informed us that the clutch was repaired for free.

But what about the other claims in the article about buyers being NARU'd, and the 24 mutual negs removed? The latter honestly makes me uneasy here.

bullwinkle222 (0 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 18:51 PDT 27 of 39
i don't know about people being NARU but check out the sellers feedback left by buyers.
I find it hard to belive that ALL the people that retracted feeds were lieing.
Just another reason to check feedback carefully BEFORE bidding.
Gotta give them credit though,they DEFINATLY know how to manipulate the feedback system !

mopared (141 ) View Listings | Report Jul-10-06 19:36 PDT 28 of 39
Will we ever know the truth? Naw.....

postingid4me2* (7 ) View Listings | Report Jul-11-06 03:10 PDT 29 of 39
Somehow the story about the mother letting her UN Licensed 15 year old drive the vehicle, does not ring true. How many mothers do you know, who would open themselves up to that kind of liability?

Once you know how to drive a stick, you don't forget

All those buyers can't be wrong( Feedback speaks volumes)

mopared (141 ) View Listings | Report Jul-11-06 04:27 PDT 30 of 39
There's more to this than meets the eye. Always is.
Miscellaneous ramblings/observations:

Where's all these bad feedbacks at? Where can I see 'em?
Someone explain to me how these people manipulate the feedback system to remove bad FB's.

Upon another viewing of Ms. Slanders' web page, what do I see? A link to our favorite Docs' site!

doogleazz (6 ) View Listings | Report Jul-11-06 05:11 PDT 31 of 39
Somehow the story about the mother letting her UN Licensed 15 year old drive the vehicle, does not ring true.

Learner's Permit?

get*a*clue (0 ) View Listings | Report Jul-11-06 06:21 PDT 32 of 39
Negative/Neutral Feedback received by proautogroup
http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=p ... eceived+by

Negative/Neutral Feedback left by proautogroup
http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=p ... rn=Left+by

Looks like the seller's negative feedbacks were withdrawn because either:
1. "Feedback withdrawn because member did not respond to formal mediation request." [buyer screwed up]
2. "Buyer and seller mutually agreed to withdraw feedback for this item." [buyer got paid off by seller]
3. "Based on independent feedback review, comment met eBay's guidelines for rating withdrawal." [eBay screwed up]

meowsertd (50 ) View Listings | Report Jul-11-06 07:39 PDT 33 of 39
lets be fair to the seller there are alot of idiots out there tehy might not be all their fault

over all their score desipte the removed negs etc is pretty good for their volume. still I was ready to buy a excursion from them and when i reviewed it all and factored in everything i know about ebay I bought a different one
Anything said by me is Parody and not to be taken seriously. No statements of fact made are to be deemed factual. ©

meowsertd (50 ) View Listings | Report Jul-11-06 07:39 PDT 34 of 39
http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com/

safe for work
Anything said by me is Parody and not to be taken seriously. No statements of fact made are to be deemed factual. ©

meowsertd (50 ) View Listings | Report Jul-11-06 07:48 PDT 35 of 39
4652556538
Anything said by me is Parody and not to be taken seriously. No statements of fact made are to be deemed factual. ©

shelley78751 (13 ) View Listings | Report Jul-11-06 21:40 PDT 36 of 39
OK, wow I have lots to say here. First of all, thanks to redturtlemotors and others who clearly see the bad business practices of proautogroup and would have handled things entirely differently. If all sellers had this professional attitude, Ebay would be a much better place.

OK, now on to points of rebuttal:

1. My 15 year old daughter DID NOT drive the car! That was the most ridiculous lie and claim that proautogroup made! She was with me when I picked up the car, and later after this thing blew up they just made that up and posted it - libelous! Not only that but they called me a TERRORIST in their neg. FB to me - how bad is that?? Their claim that "the daughter was begging her mother to let her drive it home from the dealership" is ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. Flat out never happened, a complete lie on their part. Also when they said I "told the dealership I may have burned the clutch out" - also COMPLETELY UNTRUE. They make these things up out of thin air. They're are the biggest bunch of lying unethical scam artists I have ever come across.

2. I DID NOT burn the clutch. Yes I do know how to drive a clutch and have driven one for years. As the mechanic stated, the damage on the clutch plate showed the steel rivets to be COMPLETELY worn down. He said it was impossible for that to happen in less than a matter of months and thousands of miles of driving - impossible in hours. Let's remember, it was literally six hours after buying the car - and within only miles of shift/clutch driving (the rest was highway) that the clutch went out. Also, he is not the only person who gave this opinion - three other mechanics looked at it and said the same thing - including a TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION EXPERT!! Secondly, the clutch was repaired a month ago and I've been driving it since then with NO ISSUES. Hmmmm.....it's a little hard to believe that if I was such a bad driver that I burned a clutch out within hours, that I haven't done it again? Why then haven't I already ruined this new clutch????

3. Yes Pro Auto Group DID finally pay for the repairs - AFTER receiving a letter and lawsuit from my attorney, and ONLY then. They had to be legally forced to do this.

4. My website is NOT slanderous in any form or fashion, because everything on that website is the truth. Let's remember the definition of slander - it must be untrue. PAG are the ones who committed slander when they claimed my 15 year old daughter drove the car and then called me a terrorist. I am actually talking to my attorney still about suing them for libel.

5. I have talked to 14 previous PAG customers. FOURTEEN, who all had similar experiences. In these cases they were forced to mutually withdraw feedback in order to have their repairs paid or a refund given, and many of them said Ebay just yanked their feedback due to "feedback policies." Square Trade and the Ebay Motors feedback policy is a joke. One previous PAG buyer told me his car had false service records provided. Another bought a car from them with fraudulent mileage. Still another had a previous, undisclosed front end collision! These are not the marks of an ethical, or in fact even legal, seller. The Texas Department of Transportation is currently investigating Pro Auto Group, and they have many reports filed on them at the Attorney General office.

6. I never once cursed or screamed at them. After the Square Trade mediation and they refused to make good on the matter, everything was handled through my attorney. I never even TALKED to anyone at Pro Auto Group after the second day. Also, "their" mechanic that THEY PAID did not, in fact, say it was driver error. He simply stated that the clutch had been worn from being driven improperly. He never said when this type of damage could have been done, over what time frame, or that it was done by me.

Think of it this way - if anything Pro Auto Group says is true, and they were in the right in any way - then why would they end up paying for the repair as soon as they were sued?????

In short, I hope they get their dealer license yanked and I'll do everything I can to make that happen. Also, I am really glad to see how much business they have lost when their tactics come to light. I have personally had several dozen Ebayers contact me to thank me and let me know that they decided NOT to purchase a car from proautogroup. If I can keep this circumstance from happening to other unsuspecting buyers who THOUGHT they did their due diligence by buying a car represented to be in "perfect condition" with an 111-point inspection, from a supposedly "100% positive feedback" seller - then I'm happy.

junqueluver64 (27 ) View Listings | Report Jul-11-06 21:56 PDT 37 of 39
Yer right redturtle,they shouda just fixed the clutch,and been done with it,I woulda.If he would have installed a new clutch,no questions asked,think of how many customers he would have gained,instead of lost.New clutch=$500? No new clutch=loss of good will=MANY THOUSANDS.The customers always right,even when he isn't!Of course,I know there are many of you that don't agree with me,but it has always worked for me.

mopared (141 ) View Listings | Report Jul-12-06 02:28 PDT 38 of 39
True personal story to tell. Keep in mind, I'm no dealer, just your average Joe, errr, Mo:
Had a '68 Super Bee that I was selling to finance resto on a numbers-matching, one owner Bee, back around 1987.
The '68 had an incorrect 440 with a 4 speed. Drum brakes, manual steering, no power anything, 3000 lb. clutch. I called it the Schwartzenegger car, you got out of it after driving it all pumped up like you'd been working out. Suffice to say, it was a handfull and I loved the car, but not for the faint of heart....
I put the ad in the local Trader and the calls start rolling in. Guys start showing up at the door with wads of cash, some trying to undercut my price, etc.
Well, this dog knows the dance and ain't budging off asking price. Younger fella shows up with the right money. We chat a while and he says "ok, get the title and let's do this".
I say not til we test drive....
Puzzled look on the lads' face, but off we go, me driving first, telling him of the cars' nuances, how not to do this and do that, etc.
He's all "yes, sir" "I'm very good with clutches", etc.
Then he gets behind the wheel.
A scarier mile I've never ridden.
Despite my telling him how easy it was to get sideways in the car, junior didn't quite get the idea of being gentle on the clutch and we go sideways from a red light, in heavy traffic, him all frantically trying to get her straightened up and stammering "I got it, I got it......".
Well, suffice to say the trip wasn't a lot of fun, but we got back to the house in one piece.
He again tries to give me the money (which was slightly more than I was asking at that point). I not-so-politely refuse.
No way in hell I'm going to see my baby drive off with a fella that doesn't/can't handle a clutch. I could just see the headlines in the local paper from the pending wreck.....
Moral of the story is that I read that over 80% of new cars are automatics. I read that entire generations of drivers now have never even seen a stick shift, much less learned how to drive one. Drivers' Ed doesn't use sticks, haven't for decades now....so it's perfectly reasonable to assume theres' a majority of folks out there who can't/haven't driven one.
No shame in that. Autos have damn near passed sticks in fuel economy these days, they're much more sophisticated, computer-controlled, efficient, etc.
Big engines with sticks are actually easier to drive than the little engine ones, as you can pull away from a stop with little/no throttle without stalling, whereas the little motor cars you need to goose a little, finesse 'em away from a stop a little more.

I reckon if I was a dealer and was selling a stick, I'd probably be the sort that would insist on a ride-along test drive, just to satisfy myself that the potential buyer can actually drive a stick - lest said buyer be back soon, complaining I sold them a car with a bad clutch.

...and no, I wouldn't have a problem telling potential owners that they couldn't buy my car if they proved to be less than skilled at clutches.

dogthebountyhunter (69 ) View Listings | Report Jul-12-06 03:20 PDT 39 of 39
Reminds me of a deal back in 1985 I was selling NEW FORD VEHICLES at a local dealership. A young girl came in wanting to buy a new Mustang. We had the color she wanted with all the options she wanted. Only problem was she wanted an automatic and that particular car was a standard. She didn't know how to drive one. I asked her if I could teach her how to drive one, if I could earn her business? She said YES and class was in session.

It took about an hour before she was an old pro. She signed up and the rest is NEW CAR HISTORY.

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